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TheU.ca Forum Index - General Discussion - Carbon bias? - Reply to topic

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Is evolutionary theory too narrowly defined?

No, I have no doubts that evolutionary theory as it stands is right on target.

40%

40%

[ 2 ]

Yes, I have heard discussion involving what other forms life could perhaps take.

0%

0%

[ 0 ]

No scientifically informed person could actually believe in a being made of light or fundamental energy.

20%

20%

[ 1 ]

I do find this discussion regarding other possible forms of life interesting and valuable.

40%

40%

[ 2 ]

Total Votes: 5

 
DennisTate




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Post Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:00 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Back in the 1990's I read several articles on GUT and string theory. Later on I read Stephen Hawking's Universe. in his chapter The Anthropic Principle he speculated that perhaps there were an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there somewhere in which was no life due to the fact that electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force were not properly tuned for life as we know it. It seems obvious to me that another possibility is that the first intelligent life form might be composed of energy, perhaps even a fundamental energy such as SuperForce which may be the common denominator for all four forces active in our fourth space time dimensional continuum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Quote:
In physics and cosmology, the anthropic principle is the collective name for several ways of asserting that the observations of our physical universe must be compatible with the life observed in it. The principle was formulated as a response to a series of observations that the laws of nature and its fundamental physical constants remarkably take on values that are consistent with conditions for life as we know it rather than a set of values that would not be consistent with life as observed on Earth. The anthropic principle states that this apparent coincidence is actually a necessity because living observers wouldn't be able to exist, and hence, observe the universe, were these laws and constants not constituted in this way.

The anthropic principle is based on the implicit assumption that life must operate on similar chemistry to our own, which has been criticized for being overly restrictive (sometimes called carbon chauvinism). If the weakest precondition for generic life is simply a sufficiently complex environment to allow reproduction and evolution, then any universe which could provide such complexity (in one form or another) could bring forth life.

The term anthropic in "anthropic principle" has been argued to be a misnomer. While singling out our kind of carbon-based life, none of the coincidences require human life or demand that carbon-based life develop intelligence


Was there some sort of soup of fundamental forces until 100,000^100,000 years ago at which point a connection took place and voila, "I think therefore I AM," became the first complete sentence ever thought out!!? Did YHWH or a being of light evolve in one form, or did this thinking cell of light/energy divide itself in order to have somebody to discuss various questions with.

That is a valid question.

I also believe in evolution but I think that 13.7 billion years is just not enough time for the amount of evolution to occur as can be seen here in the variety of flora and fauna on this astonishing planet.


http://grandunifiedtheory.org.il/Third%20Book/Creation%20of%20life.htm

Quote:
The scientific community has begun to turn its attention to the volcanic gashes as source of creation of life and.deep beneath the surface of the sea.as source creation of life Much to their surprise, they have discovered a dark yet flourishing biosphere teeming with life, may be source creation of life despite temperatures that routinely exceed 250 degrees (see: William J. Broad, "Deep under the sea, boiling founts of life itself," 9 September 2003). These organisms have indeed forced scientists to reevaluate some of their conventional beliefs regarding the cycle of life.

That said, wave theory, which postulates the alignment of energetic matter into wave formations that create "life formations," is viable even under such extreme conditions. In fact, energetic matter is a living, moving, mercurial matter in its own right creation of life is only other phase transition. It is a living media- formation that creates everything, including living formations, by different phase transitions in which the same wave formation-quant forms a DNA structure that enables it to store more energy and information from its surroundings. Moreover, this process endows life forms with independence within their surroundings. Life can then exist in any environment with abundant supplies of energy, such as the hydrothermal vents that occupy the remote ocean floor. (Dr. Chaim Tejman)



If life in some form can exist at 250 degrees then it seems wise to keep our minds open to the possibility that String Theory indicates a type of energy that would almost certainly lead to thinking, planning, designing, experimentation, philosophy, psychological testing, and for that matter even reality film production as it appears this entire fourth dimension may well be a stage for the production thereof.



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Post Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:31 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



How long has this been going on?



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Post Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:02 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Since days of yore in '84
This voyage has wore on
The ships and sails and peacocks' tails
The walrus chewed upon.

Upon the sky the winds blew by
and sea-spray filled the air;
By quiet nights the quartered sights
Under the moonlight stare.

The toothened heights where waven bites
Had chewed the base away,
Hid tumbled rocks whose dints and knocks
Once carved the channel's way.

The spits and sighs of surf that flies
Up from the waters black
Was heard by none, not anyone
While sails rippled slack.



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Post Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:03 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Rogue wrote:
How long has this been going on?


6 Months?



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DennisTate




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Post Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:52 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Rogue wrote:
How long has this been going on?


Actually, I started this off on Facebook about a year ago but yes, six months on this forum.

I think that 13.7 billion years is just not enough time for the amount of evolution to occur as can be seen here in the variety of flora and fauna on this astonishing planet. I believe that 99.9% or more of what we might term evolution probably took place before what we term the Big Bang. The astonishing complexity of organic life in this material universe calls for a rational explanation. Expanding evolution to include the time before the Big Bang could be done by allowing for the possibility of beings around us that came into existence and evolved in a higher more fundamental, and therefore more stable space time dimension.

http://grandunifiedtheory.org.il/Third%20Book/Creation%20of%20life.htm


....


The off the scale level of energy spoken of in regards to the highest dimensions, trillion of times higher than our scientists can work with, would seem to indicate that a being composed of somewhat more fundamental energy would be able to think far more rapidly than we are used to doing. Virtually everybody who had a NDE reports that they essentially knew all the mysteries of history and science while in the OBE state.


Quote:
"Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe
that each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces.
At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge
into a single "electroweak" force. Some "grand unified theories"
suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the
electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most
ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four
forces into a single "superforce" at ultra-high levels of energy."
---------------------------
( "A Theory of Everything"
Volume 21 of "The World of Science,"



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Post Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:14 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



DennisTate wrote:
I think that 13.7 billion years is just not enough time for the amount of evolution to occur as can be seen here in the variety of flora and fauna on this astonishing planet.


Well, first of all, the Earth hasn't existed for 13.7 billion years.

But why do you think 4.5 billion years isn't enough time for evolution? Are you a biologist?



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Post Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:16 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Psst. Don't bother.



 
 
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Post Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:09 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



I'm kind of torn. On the one side I can't really see what you're talking about, Dennis, but on the other side someone once ripped Dennis and he responded by thanking them for a correction on one point.

It's pretty hard to imagine anyone else doing that.



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Post Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:00 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Entropy must be a real bitch when you're a Superforce energy being...



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Post Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:37 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Silly, entropy doesn't exist when you're a multidimensional being of light. It's only for closed systems, and the BoLs live in infiniteeeeeee systemsssss! <3



 
 
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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:36 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Is that where the Q continuum is contained?

Ugh. I didn't like John de Lancie's character at all.



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You see, they were talking about capping emissions, and..."

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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:43 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



??

Q is Star Trek: The Next Generation.



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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:20 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



I didn't think he added that much, at least not in those 'trial' episodes. I did enjoy the one where Guinan stabbed him with the fork.

In fairness to John de Lancie he can act.



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You see, they were talking about capping emissions, and..."

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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:13 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Quote:

I think that 13.7 billion years is just not enough time for the amount of evolution to occur as can be seen here in the variety of flora and fauna on this astonishing planet. I believe that 99.9% or more of what we might term evolution probably took place before what we term the Big Bang. The astonishing complexity of organic life in this material universe calls for a rational explanation. Expanding evolution to include the time before the Big Bang could be done by allowing for the possibility of beings around us that came into existence and evolved in a higher more fundamental, and therefore more stable space time dimension.


Punctuated equilibrium, look it up.

edit: the wiki's really complicated, basically a theory saying that evolution occurs in bursts, wtih times of intense evolution occuring within relatively short periods of geologic time, followed by long periods of no evolution. Instead of believing in light beings why not believe in another evolutionary theory?



 
 
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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:54 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Rogue wrote:
DennisTate wrote:
I think that 13.7 billion years is just not enough time for the amount of evolution to occur as can be seen here in the variety of flora and fauna on this astonishing planet.


Well, first of all, the Earth hasn't existed for 13.7 billion years.

But why do you think 4.5 billion years isn't enough time for evolution? Are you a biologist?


No, but I am 98% certain that an actual biologist wrote the following comments which would tend to make any of us question if 4.5 billion years is enough time for so much evolution to take place unless we were being aided from some sort of outside force. Even Dr. Richard Dawkins himself did say in a clip that I saw from Expelled by Ben Stein that he had no problem with an alien life form evolving on another planet somewhere else in the universe and assisting evolution to take place here. Ok, if life evolving on an alien planet is theoretically possible why not a being composed of fundamental energy?

Well, the biggest problem with a being composed of fundamental energy is that they would probably be stronger and smarter than us and have considerably more advanced technology which is a rather scary idea to all of us! For the record I am not 100 percent certain that I heard Dr. Dawkins correctly, it was a short clip that I saw on one of Dr. Charles McVety's programs. I have not seen Expelled so I did not hear the entire debate between Dr. Dawkins and Ben Stein.

Quote:
These are all weak bonds, compared
to the stronger covalent peptide bonds that
hold the links of the chain together. This
difference in bond strength is critical in
regulating proteins, and also gives proteins
great flexibility and mobility, without
which life could not exist. The big question
about protein folding is,
given a particular linear sequence
of amino acid residues, what
three-dimensional configuration
will the sequence fold itself into?
It is generally thought that the
folded configuration of a protein
is its lowest free-energy state, and
in nature we see proteins composed
of several thousand amino
acids folding into their final configuration
in just a second or so.
Yet when we try to simulate this
folding process on a computer, it
has been estimated that it would
take 10127 years of supercomputer
time to find the final folded
form for even a very short protein
consisting of just 100 amino acids.
(Casti and Karlquist, 1996)

http://www.creationresearch.org/creation_matters/pdf/2001/cm0606.pdf



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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:05 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Nitz wrote:
Quote:

I think that 13.7 billion years is just not enough time for the amount of evolution to occur as can be seen here in the variety of flora and fauna on this astonishing planet. I believe that 99.9% or more of what we might term evolution probably took place before what we term the Big Bang. The astonishing complexity of organic life in this material universe calls for a rational explanation. Expanding evolution to include the time before the Big Bang could be done by allowing for the possibility of beings around us that came into existence and evolved in a higher more fundamental, and therefore more stable space time dimension.


Punctuated equilibrium, look it up.

edit: the wiki's really complicated, basically a theory saying that evolution occurs in bursts, wtih times of intense evolution occuring within relatively short periods of geologic time, followed by long periods of no evolution. Instead of believing in light beings why not believe in another evolutionary theory?


Punctuated equilibrium! Exactly!

All you have to do is think about the entire concept of punctuated equilibrium and you will tend to understand why Dr. Dawkins himself may be somewhat open to the basic idea of an alien life form being involved in the evolution of life on the earth.

Personally, from Dr. Stephen Hawkings comments regarding the possibility of an infinite number of unsuccessful universe out there in which life did not evolve because the four main forces were not properly tuned for life I came to the conclusion that an infinite number of unsuccessful universe, indicated that Dr. Hawking considered the possibility of an infinite number of Big Bang's.

What about a separate Big Bang occurring in ninth, or eighth, or seventh, or sixth, or fifth dimensiona space time, and then a LATER big bang in four dimensional space time?

Well, an infinite number of Big Bangs should allow for this possibility to also be considered.

So if a Big Bang could perhaps occur in nine dimensional space time, why could not evolution have begun there?

If I am not mistaken whatever the fundamental energy actually was, whether it was one single SuperForce, or perhaps a two types of energy acting on each other, SuperForce plus Super Energetic Matter as Dr. Chaim Tejman seems to think, in whatever state or space time dimension this fundamental force or group of two truly fundamental forces would actually exist, I believe that that is the most probable place for intelligence to actually begin and we are talking about vastly more time than 4.5 billion years.

Intelligence could lead to the manipulation of forces through what we might term technology.

It seems from this fascinating visionary dream given to a Christian mystic back in 1995 that perhaps God and the angels and the devils have gotten hooked on something much better than satellite or cable TV:

[quote]As I approached the Judgment Seat of Christ, those in the highest ranks were also sitting on thrones that were all a part of His throne. Even the least of these thrones was more glorious than any earthly throne many times over. Some of these were rulers over cities on earth who would soon take their place. Others were rulers over the affairs of heaven, and others over the affairs of the physical creation, such as star systems and galaxies. However, it was apparent that those who were given authority over cities were esteemed above those who had even been given authority over galaxies. The value of a single child was more than a galaxy of stars, because the Holy Spirit dwelt in men, and the Lord had chosen men as His eternal dwelling place. In the presence of His glory the whole earth seemed as insignificant as a speck of dust, and yet was so infinitely esteemed that the attention of the whole host of heaven was upon it. (Rick Joyner)/quote]



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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:13 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



We can and do simulate protein folding on computers, though it does take an immense amount of processing power. People in the field suspect it will lead to major breakthroughs in Alzheimer's and Huntington's very soon. A friend of mine who is doing his PhD in Genetics at UBC passed this link along to me in the summer: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2009/06/15/what-is-folding-a nd-why-does-it-matter/1

I grow weary of this absolute nonsense. Cordial though he may be, Dennis is the most infuriating poster on this board.



 
 
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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:18 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Jimmy Big Ears wrote:
Is that where the Q continuum is contained?

Ugh. I didn't like John de Lancie's character at all.


Yeah, the Q guy from Star Trek is an excellent analogy to what sort of life form could well exist out there. I sure do hope that there is a higher life form than Q and I do have good reason to suspect that there is from the NDE accounts:

http://www.christianandreason.com/
Quote:
What is our ultimate destiny?

A day will come when our Light will have become so large that we will eventually choose to merge and go back to the Creator and be as ONEjust as we were in the beginning.

Once we are all ONE again, there will be a great celebration. And after a certain amount of time has passed, yet again, there will be another great explosion, only this time it will be much bigger and the process of Creation will be far more advanced.

I felt tremendous Joy and honor in having been shown these things and with great confidence, I promised God (The Light) that I would do my very best. And in return, I was told my best would certainly be enough!

Why is it so important to understand Love and use it in everyday life?

The reason why we must learn Love on Earth can be given a scientific explanation:

God is Love and exists as the highest absolute vibration you can think of. The act of Christ-like Love elevates our own inner vibration and as this occurs our understanding of God increases. As we learn how to Love and practice Christ-like Love with one another, the inner vibration within the Soul creates magnificent rays of supernatural inner Light. These rays then extend further into Heaven, helping us to reach and enter into various dimensions that lead the way to the Higher Heavens.

Isn't the highest Heaven a place we go to if we are good in life?

Contrary to what many of us were taught by our various religions, "Heaven" is not necessarily a reward for good behavior, it is simply a "higher plane of existence" that awaits those who ready themselves to enter.

The only way to enter through the door ... is to believe in, live and hold the key of Love. (Christian Andreason, chapter 2 of his online book, uncer the link Spirituality)


In my opinion, Christian's book is the best theology/philosophy that I have ever read. Only the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ was even close!

Quote:
The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done [it], and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
(Jeremiah 30:24)

Five centuries, previous to the latter days, it was not possible to understand the wrath of God perfectly. Now I am 99.9% certain that the wrath of God is 99% off the scale sophistocated humor!



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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:22 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Do you know anything about the rate at which evolution occurs? WHY don't you believe all of this evolution could have occurred in this time? Speciation occurs on a daily basis with highly hybridizable plant species. So if plants can evolve into a new species literally within one generation, a new species that is fully capable of reproducing, and hybridizing with other similar plants, thereby increasing the number of possible species that can be created by its offspring, why can't a similar event have occurred on a greater scale than these hybrid rings? A large-scale event where speciation was rampant and new species were evolving left right and center? Oh wait... that was the Cambrian explosion... Where we see a tremendous increase in the diversity of life on the planet, one of those instances of punctuated equilibrium i mentioned earlier.

Your concept of a being built of fundamental energy is beyond my realm of opinion. I don't think it would work, but I'm not sure.

But I'm not sure I'm ready to trust your opinion on the evolution side, creationresearch doesn't necessarily sound like a resource I would cite for a biology paper.



 
 
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Post Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:33 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Lance Uppercut wrote:
We can and do simulate protein folding on computers, though it does take an immense amount of processing power. People in the field suspect it will lead to major breakthroughs in Alzheimer's and Huntington's very soon. A friend of mine who is doing his PhD in Genetics at UBC passed this link along to me in the summer: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2009/06/15/what-is-folding-a nd-why-does-it-matter/1

I grow weary of this absolute nonsense. Cordial though he may be, Dennis is the most infuriating poster on this board.


Back in 1990 I got off the scale pissed with YHWH. As I was praying and having a few brewskies one day I told God that I didn't think that he and I were going to get along very well. I told him that any plan with many called, few chosen, a broad way leading to destruction, a narrow way leading to life was the most phenomenally stupid plan of salvation that I had ever heard tell of in my entire life!

Garner Ted Armstrong's idea of a soul sleep and a later resurrection, at least sounded basically humane, which apparently God wasn't after I studied those negative NDE. Well, having been introduced to Hebraic Roots Christianity as a kid, I had often wondered what the hell this verse meant:

Quote:
but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel.
Leviticus 16:10 RSV.

Who the hell is Azazel anyway?

Is he Lucifer?

I didn't know, but this seemed like the only possible loophole given in scripture to go past the seemingly rather thoroughly less than brilliant plan of salvation as laid out in the canonized New Testament. You would think that whoever the hell Azazel was, that a volunteer goat for Azazel might perhaps improve his mindset somewhat.

So, I jumped in there and volunteered to become the goat for Azazel!

I had been taking Matol for damn near two years by that time so the stress of a lousy first marriage, a significantly elevated level of norephenerine and a probable Vulcan mild sort of thing with at least dozens if not hundreds of fallen angels and the thought has crossed my mind on at least a few occasions that I may perhaps have gone over to the dark side. If so, my being infuriating should not be any particular surprise to you!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ajewishandchristianclub/message/295
Subject: Your Antichrist guy on your Supernatural Investigator episode was OK,
but....



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