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TheU.ca Forum Index - General Discussion - Carbon bias? - Reply to topic

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Is evolutionary theory too narrowly defined?

No, I have no doubts that evolutionary theory as it stands is right on target.

40%

40%

[ 2 ]

Yes, I have heard discussion involving what other forms life could perhaps take.

0%

0%

[ 0 ]

No scientifically informed person could actually believe in a being made of light or fundamental energy.

20%

20%

[ 1 ]

I do find this discussion regarding other possible forms of life interesting and valuable.

40%

40%

[ 2 ]

Total Votes: 5

 
DennisTate




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Post Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:23 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Lock wrote:
That quote doesn't answer my question in any way.

Edit: Also, I'm not a physicist, but I think you're very confused about the relationship between dimensions, stability and energy levels. I guess that's what happens when you conflate new age silliness with physics.


Lock, there is a possibility that you could be right because I definitely do admit that I see an almost obvious correllation between what people report after having a near death experience and how GUT and String Theory and Wave Theory sound to me.

http://www.near-death.com/ritch.html

Quote:
Jesus gives him a tour of four different dimensions in the afterlife. They both fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. He witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to obtain a cigarette from the workers who are oblivious to her presence. This woman died severely addicted to cigarettes.

In a house, Jesus shows him the spirit of a boy following a living teenage girl and begging for forgiveness while the girl is completely unaware of the boy's presence. Jesus tells George that the boy committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."

Jesus shows George a bar filled with sailors who are heavily drinking. Spirits try desperately and in vain to get a drink or to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. These spirits are from humans who die severely alcoholic. He is horrified as he observes a drunken sailor pass out and an alcoholic spirit jump into the body of the sailor.

Jesus takes him to a new dimension away from Earth and shows him a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of their beliefs. These are spirits who believe they must sleep after death until Jesus returns.


On the other hand it was stated that trillions of times more energy than what our physicists have available to experiment with is what supposedly would be flowing around in waves and strings in the most fundamental dimensions so it seems that with trillions of times more energy than we have in our brains, there would be an increased probability of some sort of synaptic pathway activity beginning.

Add to all this the possibility that whatever the fundamental energy or energies of tenth and/or eleventh space time may actually have existed from eternity, it is obviously more probable for a being of fundamental energy/light to evolve within infinite time than it is for us to have evolved in merely about 4.5 billion years.



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Post Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:37 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Lock wrote:
DennisTate wrote:
Lock wrote:
That quote doesn't answer my question in any way.


Which essentially verifies my original assertion that the people who are dogmatic in their athiesm are either intellectually dishonest or have intentionally hidden their eyes from this question because the implications are kind of scary until you wade through a lot of info to finally spot that dot of light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm not being intellectually dishonest. I asked what math you were using to claim that there has not been enough time in the universe for life to evolve, and you responded with a big quote about physics that had nothing to do with biology or chemistry or any sort of explanation for your claim.

Why are you so fixed on near-death experiences, of all things? Have you had a bunch yourself?

Also, is it possible for you to respond without quoting a large block of something you've taken out of context?


In a sentence 13.72 billion years is roughly equal to ZERO time when compared with eternity.

If fundamental energy would always have existed, as I assume Dr. Hawking seems to believe due to his suspicion of their having been an infinite number of unsuccessful universes and probably Big Bang + Grand Collapses, then if evolutionary theory could be expanded to have occurred within infinite time as opposed to limiting abiogenesis and evolution to abouit 4.5 billion years than you increase the probability of evolution being possible by essentially an infinite factor!

I do believe in evolution occurring, but I suspect that perhaps 99% of evolution probably occurred before our Big Bang which was probably planned and coreographed by the life forms that would probably be composed of fundamental energy.

Even if this idea of life evolving in an infinite dimension is wrong, we sure could encourage our kids or friends or family with the possible implications of having help from higher dimensional beings that probably exist all around.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research32.html

Quote:
The Future Is Not Fixed And Can Change

During Karen Schaeffer's NDE, she was shown her children's future as it would exist if she decided to remain in the light. Because she decided to return, the future she was shown did not happen. This suggests that the future is always changing from moment to moment based upon our current actions and decisions. This principle supports quantum mechanic principles. (Kevin Williams)

One of Margot Grey's NDE research subjects stated:

During my experience ... I was also shown events that are likely to happen in the near future, but was made to understand that nothing is absolutely fixed and that everything depends on how we choose to use our own free will, that even those events that are already predestined can be changed or modified by a change in our own way of relating to them. (Grey, 1985, p. 123


I haven't had an NDE myself but a good friend of my niece did have a fairly extensive one and he impressed me as being completely sincere regarding the validity of what he experienced.

I had a good friend years ago who had extensive out of the body experiences who was one of the most blunt and honest people that I knew. He hated them by the way!



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Post Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:50 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Senther wrote:
I find it strange Dennis that you are using the concept of higher dimensions to justify the existence of BOL, but neglect to properly consider the implications of our much simpler, 4 dimensional existence on the possibility of any higher order beings, such as God. Do you realize that a 4 corner square rotating 1/4 turn creates a full circle? A full rotated square will create 16 corners, 96 hours and 4 simultaneous 24 hour Day circles within only a single imaginary cubed Earth roation. This amounts to a spiraling quad helix of Earth as it revolves around the Sun - rotating as it revolves around the Sun, to induce the value of the Sun revolving about the Earth. This act demonstrates that both Sun and Earth rotate around each other simultaneously - thus creating Opposites existing only as Opposites with a zero value existence between the binary and canceling to nothing as One or God theism. All Creation occurs between Opposites, and exists only as Opposites - with a zero value existence. As One or as a Godism, all Opposite values cancel out to nothing. The Circle you see around Earth divides Earth into Opposite values equal to a zero existence. As One or God, both Earth and Human cancel to nothing. The whole of the Universe is composed of Opposites - with a zero value existence - that cancels to nothing as One or a God. Humans worship ONEness of DEATH, thus they are destroying the LIFE of all Opposites by which all Creation exists. Evil To worship God One, For Life Is Composed of Cubed Opposites -AntiOne. Simple Cube Divinity is the most perfect and life supporting form existing in the universe and on Earth - including Earth itself. While the Circle of Earth rotation is a perpetual embodiment as it is void of the Corner Time notches that accumulate as aging Life for the 4 corner residents.

Have you mentality to know 4 Days rotating simultaneously on Earth?


Wow, seriously cool comments on this Senther!

Yes, I have ran into the idea that the universe has zero net energy. I find this idea pretty hard to grasp as to how this will ultimately fit into the picture.

Strangely enought, I don't know if I could find it quickly but some of the NDE experiencers do go into the implications of this and I loved their reasoning!

I am not certain but I believe that Christian Andreason gives more detail on the specifics of how the universe works than just about any other experiencer. He even got into a debate with Albert Einstein during his NDE!?



http://www.christianandreason.com/
click on the link Spirituality and scroll down to chapter 2

Quote:
How did we come into Spiritual existence?

My guides showed me a time we call the beginning of Creation. Just as I observed the formation of my own unique Spirit, later there was a huge explosion, coming from an amazing looking, singing, pulsing, Joy-filled ball of bright Golden-White Light! I knew that I had always been very much a part of this Great Light, as have the rest of us. From this Orb of Light exploding, I found myself happily and quite excitedly hurling through space and timearriving safely in a perfect place of peace and amazing splendor. I knew immediately that this place was geared toward the expansion and education of every Soul that came there. Today I call this space, "The Realm" and it is here that we are assisted by many wise beings and Elders while we are being helped to complete much training and soulish expansion.


Chapter 3

Quote:
Our spiritual brother, Albert Einstein

A moment happened in the beginning of my experience where Albert Einstein, the famous scientist, came forward to speak with me. While at first I could not make out his face, by the 'feel' of his energy I knew exactly who he was as soon as he appeared.

To be perfectly honest, I really never had much of an interest in Einstein before, so I found it interesting that I was seeing him now, and what amazed me at the time was that he seemed to know exactly who I waseven though he died in 1955, 14 years before I was born.

He explained that he wanted to answer a few questions I was starting to have about some of the codes and scientific theories I was now seeing on the screen held behind me. He told me it was important for me to fully understand, so I could accomplish my destiny on Earth. I remember wondering how it was that he could speak of and claim to know of my destiny, when I myself did not have a clue?



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Post Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:59 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Now I think that you don't understand statistics as well.

A++ thread though, would read again.



 
 
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Post Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:04 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Jimmy Big Ears wrote:
Lance Uppercut wrote:
A scientific hypothesis has to be testable. A scientific theory is derived from the testing of one or more (usually many more) hypotheses. A hypothesis can exist without being tested, but it is of absolutely no value. An untested hypothesis is just another unsubstantiated claim.
It can be of value before it is tested, or before the means exist to test it. A number of scientific theories (including important ones) originated before people could test/demonstrate them.

I am not in complete disagreement with you but a hypothesis that is currently untestable need not be of no scientific value and can be part of science. That said, those which have ultimately turned out to be of value have been rooted in more science than appears here.


OK, what do you think about these diagrams by Dr. Chaim Tejman?

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/fund/fund1.htm

Quote:
The prevalent and prevailing consensus points to four fundamental forces — electromagnetism, gravitation, as well as strong and weak nuclear forces — but I aver that there is only one force: energetic matter. The energetic matter creates wave formations are expressed exclusively by the two principle behaviors (forces) of pushing and pulling.



http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/fund/fund3.htm
Quote:
The swirling and spinning motion creates circular formations. To finish constructing the wave, the energetic matter must complete two semi-circular rounds. The figures are executed perpendicular to each other, and their energetic paths are in a state of superposition.

The closed formation allows the energetic matter to move along closed energetic paths and maintain its energetic matter. It creates two internal swirls (vortices), which are neither identical nor symmetrical. In other words, the same type of energetic matter that moves along a common path that is shared by both swirls within a particular wave formation. Nevertheless, the swirls do not contain equal amounts of energy even in units with the same amount of space.


Dr. Tejman has been working on Wave Theory for fifty years. His wife died of cancer and his connection between Wave Theory and cancer and even in how a virus works has a pretty obvious connection for all of us. He believes that a better understanding of the implications of wave theory could possibly lead to a whole new way of treating disease and I agree with him.

He also states that what we consider evolution is caused by the way that energetic matter moves. This makes sense to me. I just believe that what he says about how Wave Theory leads to life would not be limited to four dimensional space time and could have occurred first in a higher dimension operating at a vastly higher level of energy.



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Post Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:52 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Myself, I really don't know what to think. It seems beyond me.



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You see, they were talking about capping emissions, and..."

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1410
 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:21 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Jimmy Big Ears wrote:
Myself, I really don't know what to think. It seems beyond me.


I think that is a vastly wiser approach than dogmatically ruling out anything weird or unusual.

I read a book entitled The Eighth Tower by John Keel over a decade ago. John had obviously studied para-psychological phenomena extensively but it had made him furious! I can see why somebody might have that reaction depending on what aspect of the weird and unusual one gets interested in.

Joe Fisher wrote some great books on the subject but he ran into some pretty discouraging and deceptive psychic phenomena before he wrote Hungry Ghosts. Basically he had concluded by that time that some for of entity was being contacted in the channeling phenomena, but they seemed to have the personality of practical jokers. He found this pretty depressing.



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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:28 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Nitz wrote:
Also Dennis, most of your sources are simply a lone person going against the scientific norm, and theorizing about things that may be complex and interesting, but don't fit within the realm of science, and we are given no results to back up claims, or do we hear about conflicts with current scientific theories, only how they are 'wrong'.

in concise, EMPIRICAL STUDIES ARE WHAT SCIENCE IS ABOUT.

If there's no empirical study, its hypothesizing, it's not science.


One of the opening quotations was from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Quote:
The anthropic principle is based on the implicit assumption that life must operate on similar chemistry to our own, which has been criticized for being overly restrictive (sometimes called carbon chauvinism). If the weakest precondition for generic life is simply a sufficiently complex environment to allow reproduction and evolution, then any universe which could provide such complexity (in one form or another) could bring forth life.


Over eight million North Americans have reported near death experiences and Kenneth Ring studied this phenomena using pretty stringent methods.



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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:43 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Ah yes, the credible scientist who has published almost exclusively in his own journal since the early 1970s. And like any good researcher he branched out and published some studies on UFOs in the highly prestigious Journal of UFO Studies in the 80s. Clearly he is not a crackpot.



 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:56 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



My understanding is that people who talk about carbon chauvinism generally know next to nothing about chemistry.



 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:01 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



I DELETED THIS MESSAGE BECAUSE IT WAS TOO SCIENTIFIC



 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:04 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



IT BASICALLY SAID


"haha"



 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:46 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Lock wrote:
My understanding is that people who talk about carbon chauvinism generally know next to nothing about chemistry.
That's discrimination. What are you, a carbon supremacist? The carbon liberals will have you silicon-hating extremists arrested under the new hate-crime laws.



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" '... and I'm like, 'global warming? I thought this was a conference about chronic flatulence!'

You see, they were talking about capping emissions, and..."

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1410
 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:02 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Seriously, it's not that people say it's impossible there could be forms of life out there based on a different chemicals, but it's just SO MUCH EASIER for any kind of complex chemistry to be based on carbon under all possible circumstances that it's hard to see why there would be any different type anywhere. Maybe in some star system with a severe carbon shortage.



 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:14 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Yes. I was joking, though, which I think you knew.



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You see, they were talking about capping emissions, and..."

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1410
 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:52 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Yes, I knew. Hence the "Seriously" at the start of the post. Implying that what had come before was not serious, but I was going to continue the conversation anyway.



 
 
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Post Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:11 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Way too many posts here, and not enough thought. Too many Words; not enough Wisdom. Did you see the movie Matrix? Actually the induced night "dream world" is synonymous with the academic religious induced daytime "word world" enslavement of humans. Word has no inherent value, as it was invented as a counterfeit and fictitious value to represent natural values in commerce. Unfortunately, human values have declined to fictitious word values. Unknowingly, you are living in a "Word World", as in a fictitious life in a counterfeit nation - which you could consider Matrix induced "Dream World". Can you distinguish the academic induced "Word World" from the natural "Real World"?

Beware of the change when your brain is free from induced "Word World" enslavement - for you could find that the natural "Real World" has been destroyed.



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Post Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:00 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Senther wrote:
Way too many posts here, and not enough thought. Too many Words; not enough Wisdom. Did you see the movie Matrix? Actually the induced night "dream world" is synonymous with the academic religious induced daytime "word world" enslavement of humans. Word has no inherent value, as it was invented as a counterfeit and fictitious value to represent natural values in commerce. Unfortunately, human values have declined to fictitious word values. Unknowingly, you are living in a "Word World", as in a fictitious life in a counterfeit nation - which you could consider Matrix induced "Dream World". Can you distinguish the academic induced "Word World" from the natural "Real World"?

Beware of the change when your brain is free from induced "Word World" enslavement - for you could find that the natural "Real World" has been destroyed.


Senther, this is a fascinating concept!

I'm not sure if this is relevant to what you are saying but over a decade ago I heard a lecture where somebody compared Hebrew and English as a language. They stated that English was a legalistic language profoundly affected by lawyers and legislators who on one side they tried to come up with a loophole free clause/sentence but also they wanted to exalt their profession and keep it out of the hands of the majority.

Hebrew by its very nature is quite different from English and is open to vastly wider intreptation. One of the major problems that I have with theologians is when they try to limit Hebrew sentences into only one rather simplistic intreptation in English.

As a Christian I regard that dogmatism in theological thought could be compared with nailing down The Word which under the circumstance The Word personified might be somewhat sensitive about and less than thrilled with!

The near death experiencers all state that our languge just isn't good enought to describe what they personally saw as they floated around in what they perceived as higher dimensions. I think that the movie The Matrix does give us a lot to think about. A powerful case can be presented that perhaps our human lives and even the entiere material universe could legitimately be compared with a holograph. If this is true there are many reasons for this. Our human ignorance makes it possible for us to face fears and phobias at a whole new level that we could not experience if we still had access to essentially infinite knowledge.

If we could not face fears, I guess we could not gain courage!

If YHWH is ultimately the ultimate scientists how could we human be tested to see if we value truth which in science is of supreme importance. Fudged data, for whatever reason, can lead to people dying whose death need not occur!

When politicians act in a corrupt manner and decide on construction methods that are not up to standard, then two hundred and thirteen people can die needlessly due to one major earthquake.

On one level I believe that we are being taught that every thing we do and how well we do it has consequences that affect many people alll around us. Apparenlty with an extra ten percent expenditure the buildings in Haiti could have been made so that at least they would not collapse and kill people in the event of a large quake!



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Post Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:37 am   Reply with quote           Send private message    



Lock wrote:
My understanding is that people who talk about carbon chauvinism generally know next to nothing about chemistry.


Then again, maybe we humans don't really know a whole lot about much of anything really!

Chemistry relates to forms existing here in four dimensional space time that are probably analogies that teach us about a higher reality.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/large-hadron-collider/3319218/Time- is-running-out---literally-says-scientist.html

Quote:
The group bases its idea on one particular variant of superstring theory, a so called theory of everything, in which our universe is confined to the surface of a membrane, or brane, floating in a higher-dimensional space, known as the "bulk".

In some number of billions of years, time would cease to be time altogether - and everything will stop.

"Then everything will be frozen, like a snapshot of one instant, forever," Prof Senovilla tells New Scientist magazine. "Our planet will be long gone by then."

However, he adds that the team is only assuming there is one dimension of time. Itzhak Bars of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles has put forward the bizarre suggestion that there are two dimensions of time, not the one that we are all familiar with.


Millions of people who had a brush with death report that they entered a place where time was entirely different than what we are used to. This does remind me of Senther's comparison of our world with the movie the Matrix. (At least I think that is what he meant)

Is this human life and everything around us actually more like a holograph.



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Post Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 pm   Reply with quote           Send private message    



DennisTate wrote:
Apparenlty with an extra ten percent expenditure the buildings in Haiti could have been made so that at least they would not collapse and kill people in the event of a large quake!


Was that 10% total, or does it include the baksheesh?



 

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